<paroneayea> ======================                                     [11:06]
<paroneayea> MEETING LOGGING STARTS
<paroneayea> ======================
<paroneayea> Hey everyone!
<paroneayea> Agenda for this meeting (though we might have time for some other
             stuff as well) http://wiki.mediagoblin.org/Meeting#Next_Meeting
<paroneayea> but before we get into it, maybe we should take a minute to see
             who's here?                                                [11:07]
<paroneayea> just a simple "hello" or etc :)
<rgmf> hi
<LotusEcho> Hello
<AVRS> hello
<jiyda> hi
<rodney757> good morning
<paroneayea> I will let hellos continue to stream in, but usually these
             meetings run short or just in time, so                     [11:08]
<paroneayea> first meeting on the agenda!
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    #mediagoblin
<paroneayea> heya aaronw !
<paroneayea> welcome :)                                                 [11:09]
<aaronw> hey! :)
<aaronw> finally made one ;)
<paroneayea> :)
<paroneayea> * GSOC and Gnome Outreach for Women participation update 
<paroneayea> so here's the update...
<paroneayea> 1) we got a *REALLY GREAT SET* of proposals this year!  I'm
             actually floored; I did GSoC stuff with CC before and we never
             got this kind of response                                  [11:10]
<aaronw> woohoo!
<paroneayea> I actually think our OPW participation had something to do with
             it, and OPW actually encourages getting more involved up-front,
             and I think that's helped, in addition to OPW attracting some
             great candidates :)                                        [11:11]
<paroneayea> so, I don't know how many slots we have yet on GSoC side.  Today
             I'm going to email the GNU coordinators to let them know how many
             we'd like.  On OPW, we have two.
<paroneayea> I know people don't like waiting around on hearing back whether
             they got in
<paroneayea> so if it's permitted (I'm pretty sure it is) once we have a
             consensus next week (I'm pretty sure we will) and know the number
             of slots I'll try to let people know ahead of time.        [11:12]
<paroneayea> at the moment though, I think at least people who submitted
             should be really proud of their proposals; by and large the
             response was really phenomenal
<paroneayea> okay I'm kind of textwalling, anyone have any questions or
             comments on this? :)                                       [11:13]
<paroneayea> btw, you should always feel free to interrupt me in these
             meetings.
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<paroneayea> heya aranax!  welcome to the meeting.
<jiyda> if you apply for OPW and GSOC, does it matter which one you get in?
<paroneayea> jiyda: nope, not really                                    [11:14]
<paroneayea> they're mostly the same program in practice.
<jiyda> ok.
<aaronw> one is way cooler, but we won't tell you which
<jiyda> lol
<paroneayea> they are both cooler
<aaronw> ;)
<paroneayea> :)
<paroneayea> any other questions?  or should we move on? :)
<aranax> o/                                                             [11:15]
<paroneayea> aranax: hello!  (or was that raising your hand? :))
<paroneayea> (you can just ask if so.)
<aranax> sorry please continue
<paroneayea> np, just clarifying :)
<AVRS> paroneayea: maybe it'd be good to mention logging in the topic during
       the meeting
<paroneayea> AVRS: logging... of the chat?
<AVRS> yes
<AVRS> but meeting-specific
<paroneayea> I do do the "meeting logging starts", but sure
*** ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) has changed mode for #mediagoblin to +o
    paroneayea
*** paroneayea (~user@fsf/member/paroneayea) has set the topic for
    #mediagoblin: "GNU MediaGoblin: your free, autonomous media hosting
    software. || Code: https://gitorious.org/mediagoblin/ || List:
    http://lists.mediagoblin.org/listinfo/devel || 0.3.3 "Pixel Party" is out!
    http://ur1.ca/d1okc || MediaGoblin joins GSoC and OPW:
    http://mediagoblin.org/news/opw-gsoc-2013.html || Be welcoming, friendly,
    and patient! https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/ || channel is not"
<paroneayea> arg, too long :)
<paroneayea> I'll look into it later.
<AVRS> oh well :)
<paroneayea> okay, next topic:
<paroneayea> * Mention the bug triage meeting 
<paroneayea> so we had a bug triage related meeting.  Unfortunately, though my
             sent mailbox says I sent the email, it didn't hit the list!
                                                                        [11:18]
<paroneayea> until when the meeting started that is
<paroneayea> however, we did have freedeb, shawnrisk, Tsyesika and I there to
             talk about workflow stuff
<Tsyesika> hello
<paroneayea> here's the summary:
             http://lists.mediagoblin.org/pipermail/devel/2013-May/000538.html
                                                                        [11:19]
<paroneayea> heya Tsyesika 
<pythonsnake> hello
<Tsyesika> oh i'm 10 minutes late, sorry >.<
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: it's fine :)
<paroneayea> so anyway, the tl;dr is that we're going to implement some new
             states for bugs (reviewed will become a state, for example),
             freedeb is interested in getting involved in bug tracking and is
             also shadowing shawnrisk (who has done more on this than anyone
             for us so far!) for now, there was some conversation about
             adopting some triage tactics that are used in other projects, and
             there was a lot of conversation about tickets getting "stuck"
                                                                        [11:20]
<paroneayea> by being claimed
<paroneayea> I'm not sure if people want to discuss that further, esp since I
             failed to get out the proper meeting notice in advance     [11:21]
<paroneayea> I'll take that as no, or possibly people are still reading the
             email :)                                                   [11:22]
* Tsyesika just finished reading and the irc backlog                    [11:23]
<Tsyesika> erm really I think that the problem of stuck tickets isn't going to
           be solved by one perfect solution. I think there are going to be a
           number of things we need, one of which is guidlines for developers
           on how to deal from start to finish with a ticket            [11:24]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: I think you're right that it's going to need to be a
             multi-pronged approach.
<paroneayea> guidelines can probably help
<aaronw> paroneayea: "happening in the background" = the deb/Shawnrisk process
         also discussed?
<paroneayea> there's been talk of updating the docs to include more of the
             stuff on the wiki, including our contribution workflow, maybe
             that fits there                                            [11:25]
<paroneayea> aaronw: yes
<paroneayea> well
<Tsyesika> something i'd be interesting on writing up would be guidlines but I
           think we'd have to have a disucssion exactly how the developers on
           GMG think would help them get on top of the problem
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: If you're interested in taking some initiative on that,
             I think it could be good.  I think you're right that we need to
             loop some devs in on the process
<Tsyesika> personally I'd love to see tickets split up so the larger ones have
           the parent, have the overall outcome but then are deconstructed
           into smaller more managable chunks                           [11:26]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: probably we should be installing the "related to"
             feature into trac                                          [11:27]
<Tsyesika> yep
<paroneayea> there's a way to mark tickets as being blockec by this, etc
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: actually, would you mind writing up an "infrastructure"
             bug for installing that plugin?
<Tsyesika> no problem
<paroneayea> awesome
<paroneayea> aaronw: re: "in the background", I also know that's partly what
             deb is interested in getting more involved in; part of the
             conversation was that volunteers who are sometimes even non-devs
             in some other projects actually take a lead in keeping the bug
             tracker in a good state w/r/t triage                       [11:28]
<Tsyesika> I think a nice example of what I mean about breaking down is if you
           take #421 (MySQL support) that could be broken down into adding
           support to the scripts to make the database and migrate an existing
           one, another smaller subticket could be to write the actual suppot
           into gmg (maybe that could be broken down even more?) and then
           anothet ticket could be to have tests over them
<paroneayea>
             https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/contributing/triaging-tickets/
                                                                        [11:29]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: I definitely agree that having sub-tickets on some
             things is a good idea.  I think sometimes it's mixed though
<Tsyesika> how do you mean?
<paroneayea> for example, when adding a new media type, often all the
             contributions around both the main work and adding the tests and
             etc all come in at once, and multiple tickets aren't needed
                                                                        [11:30]
<paroneayea> but sometimes they are.
<paroneayea> sometimes breaking things apart helps, sometimes too much
             granularity can also make it hard to keep track of; I think
             though that we can do a good job of measuring that as we work on
             things.
<paroneayea> but at the very least
<paroneayea> the "blocked by" and "related to" ticket stuff will help us be
             able to break things apart where it's appropriate to do so
                                                                        [11:31]
<paroneayea> currently that's very hard.
<Tsyesika> I think even if the additions don't make sense to be pulled into
           master seporately it helps breaking them down so that if one dev
           has to stop for whatever reason there is a higher chance another
           dev taking over can find it easier
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: but another deb taking over might also be overwhelmed
             if it's a bunch of small tickets
<Elrond> Hi everyone.                                                   [11:32]
<paroneayea> I think in some ways sometimes it makes sense when realizing that
             a ticket is getting too crowded to break it apart.
<paroneayea> but we don't have to agree on the ideal sub-ticket or megaticket
             or dependent ticket workflow stuff now
<Tsyesika> it also makes it eaiser for new developers to come in as one big
           task might be different and too much for a new developer however if
           you break them down a new developer could try and tackle a smaller
           bitesized chunk and a more experianced developer can do the rest
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: that's true.
<paroneayea> hey Elrond :D
<Tsyesika> hey Elrond                                                   [11:33]
<Elrond> So what's up?
<pythonsnake> Elrond: meeting
<Tsyesika> Elrond: we're just discussing how to tackle the problem of 'stuck'
           tickets
<paroneayea> Elrond: we're talking about ticket workflow stuff related to the
             previous ticket meeting this week
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: I think at the very least, we can add that plugin.  We
             can figure out a bit more about breaking some things apart later
             as we integrate that tooling in.                           [11:34]
<Tsyesika> sure yep :)
<paroneayea> should we move on?  We've hit te halfway mark :)
<paroneayea> or any further comments?
<Elrond> Ahhh. Monthly Meeting! Totally missed out on that.             [11:35]
<Tsyesika> i'm okay to move on
<paroneayea> Elrond: :)
<paroneayea> okay, if nobody has anything else, let's move on to:
<paroneayea> * Improving our unit tests? 
<paroneayea> I think there's two things that stand out to me            [11:36]
<paroneayea>  - we don't have good docs on *how* to write unit tests.
<LotusEcho> Yes. Those would be helpful.
<jiyda> agreed
<paroneayea>  - our test coverage is not great.  Not atrocious but not great:
             it's about... 50%ish?                                      [11:37]
<paroneayea> is that right Elrond ?
<Elrond> I'd say 70%. I don't trust cov. :-|
<paroneayea> TODO (cwebber): file bug about writing unit tests          [11:38]
<paroneayea> okay
<paroneayea> so still not terrible, but not great
<Elrond> Right. We do quite good anyway.
<paroneayea> it does cover a good number of the most essential tickets.
<Tsyesika> are we accepting new code without unit tests?
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: yes we have a habit of doing that :)
<gmgbot`> *NEWS* issues: Ticket #690 (Enable 'relate to' plugin in trac)
          created
<Elrond> Can I add a subtopic? "Setting up a buildbot thingy"
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: this is also partly because for some time, we had no
             way to write certain kinds of tests                        [11:39]
<paroneayea> Elrond: YES!
<paroneayea> Elrond: actually, there's a service that sets up tests for you
<Tsyesika> I would say not doing that would be the first big step to in
           creasing our coverage in the future
<paroneayea> I'm trying to remember the name
<paroneayea> so part of the problem was previously we didn't have a good way
             to write certain tests.                                    [11:40]
<paroneayea> this is fixed very recently
<Tsyesika> there is http://trac.buildbot.net/
<paroneayea> paultag set up something for hy and I can't remember what it's
             called :)
<Elrond> Yes, I looked at buildbot. It's not super simple to get up. But it's
         doable.
<paroneayea> well there's a service that runs jenkins for free software
             projects
<paroneayea> and you don't even have to run your own servers            [11:41]
<Elrond> Ahh. I remember, but forgot the name also.
<Tsyesika> there is travis but i don't know if that's open source
<paroneayea> right, travis
<Tsyesika> oh no it is
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: it is, it runs jenkins and their soruce is out there.
<paroneayea> so, we should see if mediagoblin can run on travis.
<Tsyesika> my mistake, you're right it is
<paroneayea> TODO: file infrastructure bug on mediagoblin travis integration
                                                                        [11:42]
<Tsyesika> I'll do it :P
<Elrond> Only accepting new code with unit tests might help. But also might
         stop us from accepting useful code.
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: thanks, it's hard for me to write tickets while running
             the meeting :)
<paroneayea> Elrond: yeah it does add a barrier to some new contributors.  It
             might be worth it though.
<paroneayea> however, until now it wasn't even possible                 [11:43]
<Tsyesika> Elrond: you're right and it's a difficult to decide if it's worth
           it, i think accepting them with the intention of writing them later
           though will end up with the code just not covered 90% of the time
<Elrond> Tsyesika - Yes.
<paroneayea> because before we moved to pytest we had the issue where with
             different plugins / media types set up during tests would lead to
             sqlalchemy exploding
<paroneayea> right
<paroneayea> so, we might even want to start pushing this with gsoc coming up
<Elrond> We could accept bug fixes only with appropiate unit tests for
         starters?
<paroneayea> actually it's more important to me for new features than for bugs
             maybe?                                                     [11:44]
<Elrond> gsoc: I think, most decent proposals (at least the ones I have seen)
         have unit testing included.
<paroneayea> I'm not sure
<paroneayea> right
<paroneayea> but we should be more assertive of it
<paroneayea> anyway, it needs more docs, especially because now that we're
             using pytest
<paroneayea> there's more "magic"
<paroneayea> the whole test_app auto-injection, for example             [11:45]
<Elrond> Well, I find it more useful for bugs:  If the bug happened and was
         not noticed by unit tests, the tests are wrong. So *that* bug should
         never happen again.
<paroneayea> I'm still not happy about the magic but we had to do it to get
             things working right
<paroneayea> Elrond: hm, interesting point
<paroneayea> well, one thing's for sure                                 [11:46]
<paroneayea> we need to get more assertive about unit tests.
<Elrond> What about:
<paroneayea> if I had thought clearly, I should have filed a "better test
             coverage" gsoc idea ;)
<paroneayea> (for someone who wants to have a really tedious but important
             summer? ;))
<Elrond> 1) bugs only with unit tests, that fail for the current code and
         SUCCEED for the fix.
<Elrond> 2) New code with at least basic unit tests.                    [11:47]
<paroneayea> Elrond: exception being where it's an urgent fix
<paroneayea> that's breaking people running master's stuff in a serious way
<Elrond> Right.
<paroneayea> okay
<paroneayea> well, we'll get more assertive about this then :)          [11:48]
<Elrond> alonl's pdf support is a good example for (2). He has one pdf upload
         test and one pdf meta data extraction test.
<gmgbot`> *NEWS* issues: Ticket #691 (Travis intergration) created
<paroneayea> yes                                                        [11:49]
<Elrond> Do we have a code policy/guideline document on the wiki?
<paroneayea> we have some scattered things
<paroneayea> like git contribution workflow
<paroneayea> it's not a really good guide
<paroneayea> but our policies are solidifying
<paroneayea> I think it makes sense to expand the developer corner section of
             the docs codifying this
<Elrond> We should streamline that somehow.
<paroneayea> OH! OH!  Can I throw a topic in here?                      [11:50]
<Tsyesika> sure
<paroneayea> Merge requests.
<Elrond> Ohh yes.
<Elrond> I hate them.
<paroneayea> we have a ton of them, but we don't officially use them
<paroneayea> and so they sit and good code is abandoned.
<Elrond> Right.
<paroneayea> and that's unfair
<paroneayea> we need to fix this.
<paroneayea> it's possible to disable merge requests on gitorious.
<paroneayea> the reason I haven't
<paroneayea> is I'm afraid it'll wipe out all the existing ones.        [11:51]
<Tsyesika> why don't we accept them?
<Elrond> I think, we should try to reduce the number of merge requests pending
         each week by say two? Until it's zero, when we disable the feature?
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: basically because we try to keep things on the tracker
<paroneayea> it's harder to keep track of both
<paroneayea> Elrond: yeah maybe
<paroneayea> so I asked in #gitorious at one point.
<paroneayea> if disabling them would break things
<paroneayea> they said they didn't *think* so
<paroneayea> but
<paroneayea> it might make them not show up so you would need the link  [11:52]
<Elrond> "think", hoho.
<Tsyesika> hmm couldn't we just ask those who give merge requests to ensure
           the trac stuff is up to date
<paroneayea> it didn't make me confident enough to disable them
<Tsyesika> i think merge requests could be useful in regard to the git history
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: but why not just put the feature branch on the tracker?
<paroneayea> the git history already has a history, which is the git log :)
<Tsyesika> indeed
<Elrond> Tsyesika - We do proper merges. Just we're dumb on using the merge
         request feature.
<paroneayea> right                                                      [11:53]
<paroneayea> it's gitorious "merge requests" specifically, which is that UI
<Tsyesika> doesn't gitorious cite the real author on a merge request?
<paroneayea> I pull them all down but they just show up as numbered branch
             names
<Tsyesika> if it's complete
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: yes, so does a git branch!
<Tsyesika> hmm
<paroneayea> since we jsut merge them
<Tsyesika> okay, i think i'll look into this more then :)
<paroneayea> it just shows up with all the authorship history preserved
                                                                        [11:54]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: try looking at mediagoblin's repo with tig
<Elrond> Tsyesika - It's just an automated way of telling us, that someone has
         a branch, that they would like merged.
<Elrond> And we'd rather prefer a bug on our tracker.
<Tsyesika> okay
<Tsyesika> i get it now
<paroneayea> and hit the g key
<Elrond> We *could* transfer merge requests to our tracker, one by one.
<paroneayea> it'll show the history as a bunch of squiggly lines
<Tsyesika> paroneayea: i can use git log/less :)
<paroneayea> showing things weaving together :)
<paroneayea> okay cool                                                  [11:55]
<paroneayea> crap, we're running out of time
<paroneayea> TODO (cwebber): file this gitorious merge request ending bug
             thing and track that process there
<paroneayea> we need to move on :)
<Elrond> paroneayea - Do you run a short merge/review meeting each week on
         your merge/review days? We could take that to look at two merge
         requests.
<paroneayea> I don't run a merge meeting but maybe I should :)
<paroneayea> let's move on though                                       [11:56]
<paroneayea> the next 2 topics are super important.
<paroneayea> * 0.4.0 release coming soon
<paroneayea> 0.4.0 is less than a month away!
<paroneayea> we already have cool features, and the plugin system is a LOT
             better now (also I finally understand willkg's vision)
<paroneayea> however, I really need to hunker down and focus on writing some
             plugin docs, and do some code review                       [11:57]
<Tsyesika> what's the date for 0.4.0 release?
<paroneayea> june 3rd
<Tsyesika> thanks :)
<paroneayea> yup!
* Tsyesika makes a note
<paroneayea> we've had a TON of code come in recently.  also, the last week
             I've been totally swamped on non-code!
<paroneayea> because I've been helping people get good OPW/GSoC stuff in, and
             there was the shuttleworth grant
<paroneayea> which means I need to go head-down on both the plugin API stuff
             and on reviewing stuff                                     [11:58]
<paroneayea> but
<paroneayea> I need help.
<paroneayea> we have gotten *so much code* recently, I really need assistance
             reviewing it if people can.
<Elrond> help on what?
<Elrond> Ahh.
<Elrond> --> merge/review meeting!
<paroneayea> heh :)
<paroneayea> I'll be returning to my normal workflow week as of monday.
                                                                        [11:59]
<paroneayea> but I would love it if we could get to the point where ALL
             unreviewed code that's waiting on review gets reviewed!
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<Tsyesika> I think during this next week i'll try and get some wiki stuff
           done, try and make stuff more clear
<Elrond> I could do some reviews, but I'm too lazy to actually scroll around
         and find the code that wants to be reviewed.
<paroneayea> Elrond: okay, how about this :)
<paroneayea> today I'll set up the new review state workflow thing on the
             tracker                                                    [12:00]
<paroneayea> and I can start moving things into that format
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: if you want to talk about workflow stuff for
             contributors, I'm happy to do it, and now might be a good time
             with these new states moving into place
<paroneayea> just ping me when's good for you.
<Tsyesika> cool :)
<paroneayea> so I'll try getting a queue of stuff on the actual tracker in the
             review state.                                              [12:01]
<Elrond> Okay. :-)
<paroneayea> maybe I should also send an email to the list asking experienced
             mediagoblin contributors to help with review?
<paroneayea> given the upcoming release
<Elrond> You might. Or ask individuals?
<paroneayea> yeah maybe I should do that :)
<paroneayea> okay.                                                      [12:02]
<paroneayea> TODO (cwebber): set up review keywords, send emails to people
             asking if they can help review
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<paroneayea> okay, that's really it on 0.4.0.  This is going to be a great
             release between the plugin stuff, the new PDF support, and etc :)
<paroneayea> I still need to think of a name and a release art idea ;)  [12:03]
<paroneayea> so whew, we're almost done!
<paroneayea> last item
<joar> hey everyone
<Elrond> Well, ping me, if you want me to review something. Just my queue has
         the length of one. So only one item at a time. ;)
<paroneayea> hey joar!
<Tsyesika> hey joar
* joar is catching up with the log
<paroneayea> joar: I was just talking about how I might need some help on
             review... if you'll have time anytime soon I might try to rope
             you in as one of our most experienced contributors ;)
<paroneayea> if you have time though!
<paroneayea> we've got one more item.                                   [12:04]
<paroneayea> * Thanking simonft for sysadmin help! 
<Elrond> las item, two minutes?
<paroneayea> it won't take two :)
<Elrond> Yeah!  simonft!! :)
<paroneayea> so, simonft has *really* stepped up and helped on the sysadmin
             stuff.  He upgraded our servers, upgraded trac, improved our
             wiki, all sorts of things
<joar> paroneayea: travis-ci?                                           [12:05]
<joar> paroneayea: jenkins?
<joar> re buildbot
<paroneayea> joar: yep :)
<paroneayea> we said that further down :)
<Tsyesika> joar: #691
* joar is a few pages up
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<paroneayea> so I think simonft deserves a big thanks
<paroneayea> so thanks simonft ! :)
<joar> jumping back to the now
<Tsyesika> thanks simonft :) ^_^
<paroneayea> :D                                                         [12:06]
<Elrond> :-))
<paroneayea> okay, I think that's it!
<Tsyesika> :)
<joar> paroneayea: sure :) I'll try not to procrastinate, which is probably my
       biggest issue generally at the moment.
<aaronw> Thanks simonft!
<paroneayea> joar: I'm happy to keep talking after th meeting though if you
             have something you want to follow up on
<joar> thanks simonft!
<paroneayea> okay, thanks joar :D
<paroneayea> yay!
<paroneayea> great meeting everyone!
<paroneayea> wait, to close it out
<aaronw> paroneayea: it was great meeting you too ;)                    [12:07]
* joar braces for ASCII
<paroneayea> 
<paroneayea>         __,____          
<paroneayea>     __ /  '    \  _      
<paroneayea>    -, \_,------,_//      ROCK ON GOBLINS
<paroneayea>     <\  ,--   --.\       
<paroneayea>      / (  O) ( O )  /,,/ 
<paroneayea>      '  '--, ,--'\ /\-   
<paroneayea>     / \ 'v-v-v-v // /    
<paroneayea>     .  '.__.--__'.\/     
<paroneayea>    / ',___/ / \__/'      
<paroneayea>    | |   ,'\_'/, |       
<paroneayea>    \_|   | | | | |       
<paroneayea>     W',_ ||| |||_'       
<paroneayea>      |  '------'|        
<paroneayea>      |__|     |_|_       
<paroneayea>     ,,,-'     '-,,,      
<paroneayea> :)
<paroneayea> joar: you know me so well
<Elrond> :)                                                             [12:08]
<paroneayea> okay, thanks again all!
<paroneayea> ====================
<paroneayea> MEETING LOGGING ENDS
<paroneayea> ====================
